The International Solidarity Movement podcast episode six: Prisoner Solidarity in Palestine

This episode has been released for Palestinian Prisoner’s Day. All around the world people are highlighting the conditions of people incarcerated by the Israeli occupation. To mark this day we bring you an interview with Milena Ansari, an incredible organiser from Addameer. Adameer in arabic means conscience. Adameer is a prisoner support and human rights organisation based in Palestine that supports Palestinian political prisoners held in Israeli and Palestinian prisons. Established in 1991, the center offers free legal aid to political prisoners, advocates their rights at the national and international level, and works to end torture and other violations of prisoners’ rights through monitoring, legal procedures and solidarity campaigns.

Unfortunately we had to finish the interview prematurely due to the deportation of Milena’s friend Salah Hammouri, a long-time human rights defender and lawyer working with Addameer, which needed an urgent response. We are incredibly grateful for everything that Milena shared with us through the interview.

We want to give a content warning that there are detailed descriptions of prison conditions, including child imprisonment.

To support the work of Addameer and to learn about the prisoner struggle in Palestine, please check out the links below.

Links:

Addameer website

Justice for Salah website

International Solidarity Movement website

Join the International Solidarity Movement in Palestine

Transcript:

Introduction 00:01

Hey, welcome to the International Solidarity Movement Podcast [Arabic translation].

Nicole 00:18

Welcome back to The International Solidarity Movement Podcast. Today is April 17th, which is Palestinian Prisoners Day. All around the world, people are highlighting the conditions of people incarcerated by the Israeli occupation. To mark this day we bring you an interview with Milena Ansari, an incredible organiser from Addameer. Adameer in Arabic means ‘conscience’. Adameer is a prisoner support and human rights organisation based in Palestine that supports Palestinian political prisoners held in Israeli and Palestinian prisons. Established in 1991, the center offers free legal aid to political prisoners, advocates their rights at the national and international level, and works to end torture and other violations of prisoners’ rights through monitoring, legal procedures and solidarity campaigns. Unfortunately we had to finish the interview prematurely due to the deportation of Milena’s friend Salah Hammouri, a long-time human rights defender and lawyer working with Addameer, which needed an urgent response. We are incredibly grateful for everything that Milena shared with us through the interview. We want to give a content warning that there are detailed descriptions of prison conditions, including child imprisonment. To support the work of Addameer and to learn about the prisoner struggle in Palestine, please check out the links in the show notes.

Milena Ansari 01:46

Hi, hello, my name is Milena Ansari, I’m the international advocacy officer at Addameer Prisoner Support and Human Rights Association. A bit about Addameer, and the work that we do: Addameer is a Palestinian non governmental human rights organisation that focuses its work on advocating internationally and locally on behalf of Palestinian political prisoners, held both in Israeli occupation prisons and [by] the Palestinian Authority as well. Part of the work that Addameer does is divided into legal work, advocacy work, and awareness. And so the legal work mainly revolves around providing free legal aid and services and consultation to Palestinian detainees and prisoners and their families as well. In Israeli military courts and Israeli civil courts, and the Palestinian Authority courts as well. We do regular prison visits, where we meet the prisoners and detainees and take their testimonies regarding their detention conditions, their violations of rights, the violations of rights during incarceration. And then we analyse this information and [the] documents we get from the detainees and from the lawyers regarding legal procedures, and through mechanisms of international law, including international human rights law, international humanitarian law, and also international criminal law. In order to look into the systematic and widespread violations of detainees rights, such as the use of torture, ill treatment and medical neglect, prison raids that are brutal in nature, and also the overall brutal detention conditions that the Palestinians face inside prison. And of course, fair trial guarantees in the Israeli judicial system, whether the military one or the civil one. So that’s locally local work. When we’re talking about advocacy. It’s mainly international advocacy speaking to the international community, the way I see it, or I divide the work for advocacy into three targeted groups. The first group is regarding litigation. So the United Nations, the Human Rights Council, the special procedures, and the International Criminal Cour. Different mechanisms regarding litigation on an international level, where we report to them regularly regarding highlighted cases of Palestinian prisoners and detainees and whether there is any new violations or circumstances leading to something very threatening regarding the prisoners’ movement as a whole. The second target group is parliamentarians’ representative offices in Ramallah in Jerusalem. But sadly, this type of targeted group, there’s not much development or actual work taking action because sadly, the diplomats or the parliamentarians are always restricted with their own state position on how much they can take action so they can know the brutality and in just about these cases, but they don’t take any concrete action to prevent the further violations of human rights, because they’re restricted by the country’s politics. The third targeted group is international organisations, grassroots solidarity movements and liberation movements across the world. It’s important for us to also target our advocacy work to these groups, because at the end of the day, we understand the injustice that happens in Palestine, the brutality, the violence, what happens with political prisoners, whether spyware surveillance or the use of torture or medical neglect, is not something very unique to the Palestinian situation. But these are policies that oppressive governments use across the world to implement their domination and oppression over a vulnerable community or minority group. So we tried to put aside the geographic fragmentation and differences and focus on these arbitrary policies. And this is the third targeted group. But when we talk about the work of Addameer we also work on spreading awareness to the Palestinian community here locally on the ground. We do workshop programmes that are called Know Your Rights ‘K N O W’. Sadly, if you can see me you will be you’ll see that I’m doing air quotes, because from the first moment Palestinians are arrested up until the release, there’s brutality and violence embedded at each stage of the process, whether it is the arrest process, the detention process, the interrogation, the transfer to the prison, and the incarceration itself. There’s violence and brutality. But it’s really important for us to spread the awareness to our community, to strengthen their knowledge of their own rights, when they are subjected to arrest and detention, we make sure that they know they have the right to have a lawyer present with them to be interrogated in the language they know. But sadly, none of these rights are provided to them. But it gives some kind of, you know, strength to the prisoners, because inside prison, they are isolated, they don’t have a community to support [them] psychologically or mentally, and so on. It’s on us to empower them ahead of time, and to know what to expect and how to act in these conditions.

Nicole 07:10

What is the situation of prisoners in Palestine? What kind of conditions are they living in and experiencing

Milena Ansari 07:15

First, before talking about prison conditions, I do have to acknowledge that me myself, I have never been in prison. So part of me doesn’t feel like I have the right to talk about prison conditions, because we document from the prisoners themselves, [taking] testimonies directly. So these are their words, their own experiences, prison conditions are extremely brutal, and they’re harsh in nature, there’s overcrowding in prisons [that] Palestinians are incarcerated in. In one prison cell, there could be more than ten prisoners there. [Its] not only overcrowding, but there is lack of any basic minimum living standards, like any adequate living for basic human beings, there is no protection of the right to health, the right to education, even inside prison. What I mean by this is that inside prison, the prisoners are in control – or they are in charge and responsible – of everything for themselves. They do the cooking, they do the cleaning, they buy their life necessities from the prison canteen, where there is also economic exploitation, where the prison canteen sells life necessities and food at very high costs and high prices. There is also economic exploitation because the prison contains you. The prisoners are obligated to buy these necessities at very high prices. Why I say obligated because according to international humanitarian law, when there’s occupation and there are prisoners from an occupied territory and the occupying power, which Israel in this context has. [The occupier] has an obligation to provide adequate living necessities to the prisoners, they have an obligation to provide even adequate healthcare to prisoners. But what we see [with] implementation on the ground is actually using healthcare as a leverage against detainees and prisoners, where in order to put more psychological pressure, more physical pressure on the detainees, even [when they are already] in prison, the Israeli Prison Services don’t provide them proper medical health care. The prison clinics are [called] by the prisoners as the slaughterhouse because they’re by no means a place to take medical care, or to take any kind of treatment or prevent yourself from any sickness or diseases or even chronic illnesses that the detainees or prisoners already have. So they are experiencing more brutality in the clinic. The prison clinics [are[ like going back to prison conditions as a whole. How is life inside prison? The prison structure the prisons. So general, there are 17 prisons and detention centres where Palestinians are incarcerated by the Israeli occupation, and only one is located in the West Bank – so in the Palestinian territory – the rest are located in what is now called Israel. What that means? one thing is that the Palestinian prisoners are isolated from their own community. What it also means is that the loved ones, the Palestinian community cannot visit the prisoners inside Israeli prisons, because they need to take a specific permit from the Israeli occupation. And we note and report that male Palestinians between the age of 20 and 40, almost never get a permit to visit their loved one is in prison. So there is isolation. I don’t want to talk about law a lot. But the forcible transfer of the prisoners outside of their occupied territory, to the territory of the occupying power, is also illegal under international law and is a crime, and what we see happen on a day to day basis. And the majority of the Palestinian prisoners are forcibly transferred outside of their territory. The prison structures or the prisons where Palestinians are incarcerated in now. Not only are they held inside what is Israel, but they are also prisons that were established from the British Mandate era. So we’re talking about from way before 1948. And no actual reconstruction or rehabilitation for these structures have happened. Yhe structure of prisons doesn’t really entail anything that they can hold prisoners in them. Like, for example, Damon Prison [in the Naqab, inside the borders of Israel] – where Palestinian woman prisoners are incarcerated and detained. And originally, during the British Mandate, it was a place to store tobacco and even a horse stable at some sort of time period. But when I say this, by no means do we mean that we need to better the detention conditions for Palestinian prisoners. No, we do need to focus [on] the root cause. That is, why do we have 4700 Palestinian political prisoners held in Israeli prisons? This is the focus or the question that we should tackle and prison conditions is just one of the issues we follow up on. So other than the overcrowdness, there’s also lack of ventilation, lack of natural lighting, or any kind of like window cell that brings any kind of sunlight or natural lighting to the prison cell.

Nicole 12:34

like how do prisoners in Palestine [organise]? Like are they able to organise with each other, or resist the conditions? Obviously, they must experience oppression from these activities. But yeah, how are prisoners fighting back?

Milena Ansari 12:46

The Palestinian prisoner movement – and I can tell you this, with all honesty – it’s one of the only forms where Palestinians are united, sadly. Because outside of prisons Palestinians are fragmented, geographically, whether it is Palestinians in Gaza in their land, water and air siege for more than five years, seven years now, whether it is Palestinians in the West Bank that are under military rule, or Palestinians in Jerusalem and occupied ’48 territories that are under direct Israeli apartheid and discrimination. And of course, the Palestinian refugees, millions of them in exile, not being able to return back to their country. So the Palestinian community is fragmented outside of prison. But when we talk about the prisoners movement, it is all united, all together. There is no political party making decisions amongst all the other prisoners, they are all united taking decisions. And we see honestly a very strong connection and strong activism inside prison even with all of the brutality that prisoners face. And one example of this is hunger strikes. Collective hunger strikes have been one of the most important and only tools for Palestinian prisoners to protest either their harsh incarceration conditions, or their arbitrary detention in general. So collectively, they decide as a whole to refuse food for an open period of time, in order to change the power dynamics between the prison guards and the prisoners themselves. So the prisoners become in control of their own bodies. They become sovereign over their bodies, and don’t allow the prison guards to decide how they want to live their life or whatnot. It’s a form of pressure. It’s a peaceful form of demonstration. You’re’re using your own body to change the power dynamics between the oppressor and the victim. But sadly we see [that] collective hunger strikes are also being faced with more retaliation by the Israeli Prison Service. And so for example, when the prisoners initiate a hunger strike, those who are striking are immediately put into isolation as a form of punishment in the Israeli Prison Service’s sense that doesn’t make any common sense. And they say that since they are refusing a meal, which is in the laws and policies of the prison, they are basically refusing to abide by the prison rules. So they punish them by isolating them and putting them in isolation cells. Also part of [the repression is] not allowing them any contact or communication with the rest of the prisoners. Other forms of resistance by the prisoner movements other than hunger strikes and refusing meals is they refuse to stand in the count. The count is when the prison guards enter each prison cell and call out the prisoners by their numbers to make sure everyone is still in their place in their cells. And so a form [of resisting] is refusing to stand, to obey or to listen to them calling the prisoners.

Nicole 16:12

How is the prisoner solidarity movement, like on the outside? Like how is this relationship between the inside and the outside in Palestine?

Milena Ansari 16:19

they’re intertwined. Definitely, like whatever the situation on [the] ground outside of prison is, does reflect on the situation inside prison and vice versa. Of course, an example of this is there was a hunger strike that was supposed to [be] initiate[d] in 2014. But if you remember, in 2014, there was a huge war on Gaza. And the Palestinian community wasn’t able to either focus on the hunger strike in prison or the siege and the war on Gaza in 2014. So the prisoners halted their hunger strike and postponed it until after the violence against Gaza. Because, you know, the Palestinian community tends to feel a lot. Like in May 2021, when there were families, Palestinian families in Sheikh Jarrah being forcibly displaced [from[ their own homes in Jerusalem. And everyone across Palestine from the river to the sea was revolting, and was standing up with Palestinians in Sheikh Jarrah. We even saw cities in the occupied 1948 territories that don’t usually stand up or speak up or challenge the Israelis, because they are at the forefront with the Israeli occupation. But for example, Al Lidd, which is a Palestinian occupied ’48 city was revolting and standing up. We saw even people in the diaspora, Palestinians all around the world standing up with Sheikh Jarrah, and so I can clearly say that there is an intertwine or a reflection to what happens outside of prison with what happens inside of prison. Same thing, if we talk about the vice versa. The Gilboa escape. That happened last year, in November, where six Palestinian prisoners from Gilboa, a maximum security prison, were able to successfully escape this prison and sadly, they were recaptured after that. But during that escape all the Palestinian community across Historic Palestine, was supporting them saying that we’re here to support or take on any prisoner or any escapee – even if they would face criminal responsibility and criminal charges. They made sure that whenever a prisoner needs a Palestinian, that the support and solidarity is there. And of course, the way that Palestinians look at prisoners, they look at them as a symbol of resistance and a symbol of strength. Because although we are living in an open air prison, they are living in a very closed prison, isolated from their loved ones, their family, and their support system. So we have to be their support system from outside of prisons.

Nicole 19:19

And do people like receive letters? Is that possible? Or I know you said visits are often very restricted, but how do families stay in touch with their loved ones to prison?

Milena Ansari 19:31

Sadly, this is what the Israeli prison services and the Israeli Apartheid settler colonial regime aims for regarding prisoners, they aim to isolate them. So when we talk about, do they get letters from their loved ones and whatnot? The answer is simply no. It’s possible to send letters but the Israeli prison services will open each letter, read it through, and if they feel like any sentence or any word is misplaced, or might motivate the Palestinians, or support them in a way that the Israelis don’t want the prisoners to have support, they don’t give the letter to the prisoner. So it stops with the Israeli prison guard that looks into the letter. So it’s possible to send, but it’s not really possible that the prisoner will receive the letter at the end of the day. And this is all part of restriction like by the way even books, educational books, even the Quran – which is the Holy Bible – is sometimes refused to enter the prison. Or even if we want like different religious books – not the only the Quran – they don’t allow religious books. They don’t allow history books inside prison, any like chemistry or physics books? They use the allegation or the narrative of security reasons. But we know all of this is part of educating the Palestinian community, because inside prison, there’s no education system provided by the Israeli prison services. And it’s completely banned.

Nicole 21:07

So in that regard, like we had the insight into reading one of your reports about prisoner education, and it was super inspiring all this organising and pressure campaigns to access education, including the development of a university! could you share a little bit about that?

Milena Ansari 21:24

And so inside prison, the Israeli Prison Services completely deny the Palestinian prisoners and detainees the right to education, the right to continue their education. So any educational books or study groups are banned, and the prisoners can be punished for [trying to access them], either by isolation or banning them from prison, from family visits, or phone calls to their families. And so what the the prisoner movement did – and this is one of the success stories of the Palestinian prisoners’ movement – is that they established their own university educational system, where they also work remotely with Al Quds University in Abu Dis. But this educational system is restricted [to] a few topics, like a few fields of education, like social sciences, and I believe political science as well. Social Sciences and Political Science and Social Studies, Psychology, things that have do with math, or physics or biology or whatnot. Because these are banned by the Israeli Prison Services. So when I say that they have established their own system, it’s really important to note that the Israeli Prison Services, up, until this point, have allowed this to happen. But at any moment, they can hold every Palestinian prisoner who goes into this establishment of the like the study courses and the cultural courses – they can punish them because at the end of the day it’s still illegal, but for some reason, they’re shutting a blind eye at it. And of course, this education system was established by the Palestinian political prisoner and Legislative Council Member Marwan Barghouti, and he had [an] important role in this. And he led the prisoner movement with this educational system.

Nicole 23:29

So in the UK, we have one of the most privatised prison systems in the world. We have a lot of private companies making massive profits from imprisoning people. And I’m aware that one of those companies G4S has also worked in Palestine. Could you share a little bit about that?

Milena Ansari 23:45

The G4S campaign actually is also another success story for the BDS [Boycorr, Divestment and Sanctions] Movement. Because in the past, I believe in 2014-2016, the G4S campaign – which is a security surveillance company that runs in different prisons across the world, and Israeli prison services used to use G4S in their own prison systems. There was a huge campaign against G4S asking them, and calling them to end their ties with the Israeli occupation, because of their violations of human rights. And this is where we see the line between private companies and human rights come together. Because we cannot say that businesses or companies should not abide by human rights, law and international principles. On the contrary, they play a huge and important role in really facilitating and playing an integral role in the oppression and domination of the people. So thankfully, up until now, the G4S have withdrawn their surveillance and their technology systems from Israeli prisons, but I do acknowledge and I can say it clearly that training sessions between G4S and Israeli Prison Services or Israeli security intelligence is still ongoing. So while they pulled their services from prisons, they’re still complicit somehow, by training and giving workshops to the Israeli occupation. This is why the power of BDS is important. Because it’s not only about the clear violations that we see, but it’s also what happens under the table. It’s these training sessions that are also embedded in the Israeli occupation, the ways of domination and oppression. And it all needs to end. Maybe I’ll connect it to something very recent I read about, which is Ben and Jerry’s, the ice cream company. And very recently, I think last week, officially, they won the lawsuit where they took control over stopping their products – Ben and Jerry’s, an ice cream company – [stopping] their products in Israeli settlements. The mother company of Ben and Jerry’s, refused this act, and wanted to hold them responsible for stopping their products in an Israeli settlement. But after following up with legal procedures, and really not bowing down to the bullying of the Israeli occupation, and also Israeli lobbying around the world, they won the case. And they were able to officially decide and announce that they will not have any of their products in Israeli settlements. So this is what we need to focus on, is that no matter how big, or how small,. Whether it is security and technology in prisons, or ice cream, it really plays a role in maintaining the oppression on the Palestinian people and sustaining the Israeli apartheid regime. So in order to really tackle the root cause of what’s happening here in Palestine, each country or each company needs to really self-criticise their work and self note, how are they complicit and playing an integral role into the occupation of the Palestinian people. And trust me, when this happens, when companies start opening their eyes and holding Israel accountable for human rights violations, Israel will understand the pressure from the international community. And I know this is possible because, when Russia invaded parts of Ukraine and established a war, and started stealing lands in Ukraine, European countries did not stop to think for a second [before] boycott[ing], sanction[ing] and divest[ing] from Russia and Russian companies. So we know it’s possible, with political will and with political intention. And we just want the same treatment, of how the international community is treating different racial groups or different nationalities – to treat Palestinians minimum the same. It’s not because we’re jealous, or we want to be treated as Europeans or whatnot. It’s basic human rights. It’s a legal, and it’s a moral obligation on the countries around the world, to hold Israel accountable for their human rights violations, instead of shedding a blind eye and constantly giving impunity to their violations. Because this silence only tells Israel, we’re giving you the green-light to continue on doing whatever you’re doing, and even expanding on doing that. So there’s a big role [for] the international community, ending their silence. And it starts with basically ending their silence. And what do you think is the role of the international community in terms of prisoner solidarity and prisoner support in Palestine? For the prisoners movement, solidarity is not only during hunger strikes, this is what I really want to focus on. Because in the type of work I do, I always interact with the international community, I always talk or report on cases of the hunger striking detainee, or a detainee under medical neglect or a woman in prison or a child. We talk about the policies, the systematic policies, and sadly, no one hears us when we’re talking about policies. But when we say there’s a detainee under imminent threat of death, that there is a child who was subjected to torture, or there was a woman who was subjected to rape, like when we are extremely clear about the cases, do we see people wanting to interact and wanting to work and wanting to save this specific case? But sadly, that’s not how we will deal with the prisoners issue. Because it’s not only one prisoner, it’s not two prisoners. It’s 4700 prisoners all facing the same policies of discrimination and oppression. So when You want to stand with Palestinian prisoners, you have to stand against the policies stand against prosecuting Palestinian civilians in Israeli military courts that lack any guarantee of fair trial standards, because violations of their rights starts from them. Starts when a military judge whose most of the time an Israeli military officer and most of the time an Israeli settler is ruling using Israeli military orders against a Palestinian. So basically, there’s no real justice or accountability in the Israeli judicial system. It’s just a system that plays an integral role in facilitating all these policies and all this oppression. So if the international community wants to stand with Palestinian prisoners, they have to stand against the Israeli apartheid regime, they have to stand against settler colonialism. Because as long as the idea – or the ideology – of settler colonialism is deeply rooted in the State of Israel, political prisoners will emerge over and over again. Violations of the rights will continue on happening. So in order to really support prisoners, we need to support the Palestinian people in general. Stand against prosecuting Palestinian prisoners in military courts, stand against the military regime that’s implemented against Palestinians in the West Bank, and stand against the racist policies of the Israeli apartheid regime.

Nicole 31:45

So how do you think that kind of like situation has changed over time here? I know [from] doing prisoner solidarity work a long time, it often feels extremely depressing, that things just seem to get worse and worse. And obviously, you’ve talked about some successes in your struggles and your organising. But how do you think it’s changed? And how do you think it might continue to change?

Milena Ansari 32:09

So I don’t want to be pessimistic at all. I want to be [as] realistic as possible. I have been working with Addameer for three years now. And I can say, from this short period of time, three years, the situation has been ten times worse, it has been increasingly escalating with violence with the numbers of prisoners with the policies that the Israeli Prison Services use. And sadly, it’s very disappointing. It’s very sad. It’s very unfortunate. And if I want to say who is to respond to be responsible, I’m not the type of person who likes to blame others. But I do want to shed light at the role of the international community. Because when the the prisoners’ movement first emerged, there wasn’t much solidarity and much support [for] the prisoner movement. Like the international community would still argue that Palestinians are in prison because of the safety of the State of Israel. We would still hear these arguments, justifying the brutality inside prisons, by saying [it is] to save the security of Israel. And so I believe, sadly, the impunity of the international community has allowed Israel to continue on doing what they’re doing, and even expanding more and more. As I mentioned before, but really, I’m being completely realistic. Like when I first started with Addameer, I was talking about 300 Palestinian administrative detainees. So those who are detained without a charge without a trial, based on secret information and indefinite time. There are 300 of them during the first time I started three years ago. But now if you asked me, what is the number of administrative detainees, it’s 835. And that’s within three years, this number, I think, doubled even within two years, the situation is definitely getting worse, even with the Gilboa escape last year. We are seeing the Israeli Prison Services implement more policies of retaliation against the prisoners. So they even started with the recent policy where one prisoner cannot stay in their own cell… more than three months, and they cannot stay in the same prison more than six months. So they’re even trying to really mess up the whole life inside prison, where it’s always uncertainty. There’s always unknowing, and the future of the prisoners inside prison is always left at the hands of the Israeli Prison Services sadly. So I don’t want to be sounding very pessimistic but it’s the situation on ground, it’s deteriorating day by day.

Nicole 35:04

Recently, we went to a demonstration with some mothers whose children were in prison. I just wondered, you know, we have we have, like children prisoners in the UK from the age of 12. We can be in prison. But I know here it’s like on a completely different scale. How many children are in prison? And I just wondered what the situation is [for] child prisoners?

Milena Ansari 35:26

When we want to talk about Palestinian children, prisoners and detainees. Actually, it’s the most brutal and the saddest, topic or issue regarding the Palestinian prisoners’ movement, because yes, even here, children as young as 12, could be prosecuted and put in prison. And there is a juvenile system, or a juvenile judicial system, implemented by the Israeli occupation, but there’s no actual application of it, like in reality on ground, the same court that looks into prosecuting a Palestinian [adult], regardless of what age, is the same that looks into prosecuting Palestinian children. So this juvenile system only exists in words and writing but not in real implementation. There are around 160 Palestinian children in prison. Four of them are placed under administrative detention. So four children are placed without charge without trial under secret information! [final music].

The International Solidarity Movement podcast episode five: ISM Volunteer Experiences on the Frontlines

In the fifth episode of the International Solidarity Movement podcast we are joined in the village of At-Tuwani by two ISM volunteers – Herbie and Maria – who both spent several months volunteering as internationalists in Palestine. They tell us from a personal perspective what it’s like to be an international volunteer in Palestine, and especially in the South Hebron Hills. ISM is focusing it’s presence here because of to the ongoing demolitions of Palestinian homes and infrastructure by the Israeli occupation.

We ask Herbie and Maria what brought them to Palestine, what they would say to people who are thinking of joining ISM but aren’t sure yet, and also what it’s been like witnessing some of the violence of the occupation.

Links:

International Solidarity Movement website

Join ISM’s work in Palestine

Masafer Yatta – communities Israel is trying to drive out – by Btselem

Save Masafer Yatta website

International Solidarity Movement call to action – Masafer Yatta

If you would like an explanation of the terms used in this podcast, youI can find a useful glossary on pages 140-154 of Shoal Collective’s Ebook

Supported by Shoal Collective

Transcript

Length: 19:47

Introduction 00:01

Hey, welcome to international solidarity movement podcast [followed by Arabic translation]

Hazel 00:19

azeazeaHello and welcome to the fifth episode of the International Solidarity Movement podcast. Today we are joined in the village of At-Tuwani by two ISM volunteers – Herbie and Maria – who both spent several months volunteering as internationalists in Palestine. they tell us from a personal perspective what it’s like to be an international volunteer in Palestine, and especially in the South Hebron Hills, where ISM is focusing it’s presence, due to the ongoing demolitions of Palestinian homes and infrastructure by the Israeli occupation. We touch on what brought them to Palestine, what they would say to people who are thinking of joining ISM but aren’t sure yet, and also what it’s been like witnessing some of the violence of the occupation. At the end of the interview, Herbie and Maria discuss the culpability of Western states in the ongoing colonisation of Palestine and – in opposition to this – how we can directly take action to stand with and struggle alongside the Palestinian people in their fight for autonomy and freedom.

Nicole 01:18

So we’re really happy to be joined by two volunteers from ISM, the International Solidarity Movement, who have been in Palestine for several months this year at different points. And we’re going to be asking them some questions about their experiences here, some of the challenges, things they’ve learned, and also enjoyed since they’ve been here. But yeah, if you’d like to introduce yourself, that would be amazing.

Maria 01:39

Hi, everyone. So I’m Maria, and yeah, I’ve been, I’m almost at the end of my visa. So I’ve been here for three months now. And I was here a month over the Summer.

Herbie 01:51

Hi, everyone, I’m Herbie, I’ve been here for nearly two months now. And I’ve got about another month left of my visa.

Nicole 01:59

Can you share a little bit about how your experiences have been here?

Maria 02:02

Yeah. So I think the situation in general is very challenging on the ground. I was here for the first time this summer. And it was quite mind blowing. I’ve been campaigning for Palestine in the UK. But I think when you see things on the ground, and you live them, and you experience them, and you talk to people, it’s… it’s completely different. I think you get used to like the rhythm quite quickly. But yeah, I think overall it has been amazing. I’ve met lots of very, very interesting people. The Palestinian activists are great. The international activists are all amazing. And we’ve also met lots of Israeli activists, which are really nice. So I think generally, like very recommended experience and very positive, but yeah, it’s, it’s challenging. And ISM is very often on the first line. So you are, yeah, very often like, in [a] conflict situation. And some of them can be very challenging, but I think you develop as a person as well. So yeah, positive in general.

Nicole 03:04

What’s your kind of like day to day, what would like an average day look like here?

Herbie 03:09

I mean, to be honest, like, every day is different. And it’s very dependent on where we are. At the minute, we’re in Masafer Yatta. And we’re kind of based in a couple of different villages. In one of them, we do the like morning and afternoon school run, because some of the children have to walk through a settlement, Havat Ma’on – sorry, [it’s] an illegal outpost – to get to school, and they sometimes get attacked by settlers. So they have a military escort. And then we are also there waiting for them on the other side, to make sure they’ve arrived safely. But things often pop up very unexpectedly – like you, you can never predict what’s going to happen in a day. For example, on Monday, everything was very lrelaxed. I, like, didn’t have a lot to do. And then the next day, I was at three different demolitions in different villages in Masafer Yatta. And there was also a fourth demolition, and then I went to another village to visit some children whose school was recently demolished. So it varies a lot.

Nicole 04:26

We’ve been interviewing in some of the villagers we hear about the demolitions and their experiences, but could you share a little bit about what your – your role is, while that’s happening, and what you’ve observed?

Herbie 04:36

Yeah, so I suppose the most important role for us and and what the locals want is that we’re there to document what’s happening. Because we’re like, in the area, we can, we’re either like, already living in that village, or we can get there very quickly. We can get there like, a lot faster than, you know, the UN can or anyone else. So we’re there to like, document the whole thing so that the world can hear about what’s happening otherwise. You know, most people would just never know that these people’s homes and villages are being destroyed. In an ideal world, if there was enough of us here, then we could take direct action to actively resist the demolitions for example, like going on the diggers, blocking vehicles, surrounding the house. But unfortunately, since lockdown there is like a very low number of volunteers here. And it’s just not safe or effective for us to try to do those things if we don’t have the numbers for it. So yeah, it’s quite, it’s quite difficult just standing there filming instead of trying to resist it happening. Another thing we can do is try to de-arrest Palestinians if they’re being taken by the police.

Nicole 06:03

And I know like some people in the UK that have considered coming – like maybe they’re nervous because they don’t know what to expect or they have health issues. They don’t feel like they can do it. Or like mental health challenges… Like do you feel like it is accessible for everyone here or do you feel like there are different roles people can do, or do you think it has been quite kind of physically demanding, the work here? Like what’s the kind of, yeah, experiences in terms of like your own health and your own well being.

Maria 06:29

Yeah I think as an organization it is quite wide. And there are roles for everyone. And you can show solidarity in lots of different ways, even only just living in a village and like showing people that, you know, internationals are there, and they’re aware of the situation. And they are filming, if needed, then that gives Palestinians strength and like, is a push for them to continue the fight. If you feel like physically able, then there is of course, like more challenging – physically challenging – work to do. But like, it’s, it’s nothing crazy. And we’ve got media roles, international coordinator roles. So yeah I think the good thing of ISM is that everyone, yeah, so the good thing of ISM is that like everyone can participate in the capacity that they feel they can. So if you want to be more based in the flats, or like in house in a village, you can do that. Again, if you feel like being in the front line, and like, put yourself more at risk, you can also do that. So it’s really up to the person. Mentally it is a challenging situation, but you will always, always have support from people on the ground. So I think it’s, I think it’s generally accessible to most people.amar

Herbie 07:47

Yeah, I would, I would agree that like the ISM will, like, try and accommodate for people’s health needs. But I do think it is important to consider that like, it is a very mentally challenging situation. I’m definitely someone who’s like struggled with my mental health. And I really had to think hard about whether I was like mentally stable enough to deal with this context. And it has been a challenge. And I think it’s also really important to look after yourself whenever you go home as well, because I think also, although being here is difficult, I think also leaving and going back to ‘normality’, and having to process everything is – can be quite difficult for people. And I think it’s also important to consider that like, a lot of the work here is quite physical, like we do a lot of like, walking from village to village, we don’t have – we can’t always get a lift to places. There is like, you know, like, yeah, physical work to do, as well. And at demos you might have to run if there’s like, gunfire and things. So, yeah, it is accessible to different people’s needs. But it is also important to like consider what you’re able to do before coming. And, like, not put yourself in dangerous situations.

Nicole 09:18

A lot of people will see Palestine on the news. And yeah, like, for someone that’s never been here before, like I think, it does feel like extremely intimidating. Of, “oh my god, am I gonna get shot? Am I gonna witness someone else getting shot?” Like, it’s really got this kind of like, I mean, it is a conflict zone, right? But I think it’s been very different being here and seeing the kind of normality in the day to day things, even though everyone is like, relentlessly affected by the occupation. And it kind of defines everyone’s lives. I just wondered like, how it’s been for you in terms of violence and like, you don’t have to disclose what you don’t feel comfortable with but, like, yeah, how has it felt being here and seeing the occupation and how it affects people?

Maria 10:01

For me, that has been a bit challenging. I think, especially over the summer, I’ve been to a couple of demos where two kids were shot, and they died. So we’ve been to funerals as well. And like, the funerals are, like a whole experience here. Because there are like, thousands of people that attend and, you know, it’s like, sort of a national mourning. So it’s a very intense experience. I don’t know if that’s the right, like- [it’s] very beautiful on one side in the sense that there are all these communities that come together, and you know, like mourning the martyrs. But yeah, I mean, in terms of violence, you might experience some here and witness some and that’s very hard. As I say. So seeing like people getting shot or like seeing settlers’ violence.

We’ve ended up in a couple of situations where we thought that we’re gonna get injured, then that didn’t happen. But yeah, I think, again, ISM tries to cover this situation – there are a lot of different lines. It’s then up to the volunteer if they want to go, if they want to participate, and things like that. Especially like demonstrations this summer, they were very intense. I was here when they – the two or three days that they bombed Gaza. So like they were doing demonstration here in the West Bank and those like, they were quite tough and they were, like, repressed horribly, by the IOF [Israeli Occupation Forces]. So that was harsh. And I think in general, like I think as Herbie said, the situation can kick off anytime, so… and soldiers and settlers don’t like to see international[s] filming and being here. So you often are the targets of of soldiers – like not in a physical way, but you know, like them trying to scare you, or like making you leave. So you kind of need to be mentally prepared for that sort of violence as well.

Nicole 11:54

I think I’ve been very – not surprised here, but people have really been like, “oh, we need internationals to talk about this, we need pressure, like… things are getting worse, because there needs to be more pressure from the international community”. And I think maybe I hadn’t come previously in my life because of, I guess, okay, like, you know, there’s a lot of language around like white saviourism, or people traveling abroad when there’s like, oppression in the UK, you know, like the prison system or racism or how like refugees and migrants are treated in the UK and stuff. So I think I’ve never been like a natural internationalist, if that makes sense. But I’m – it’s kind of very interestingly, like, massively made an impression on me that people seem so welcoming, like just buying us coffees on the street, or, you know, like sweetcorn from a stand or just people – everyone’s interested in us and asking questions and people are like, “thank you for coming.” And there seems to be this like amazing, like openness and hospitality. I just wondered if you had any kind of thoughts about that. Maybe someone is listening, and they’re like, “Oh, I feel weird about going”, or, like, has that stuff come up for you?

Herbie 13:01

Yeah, the whole like, white savior thing is definitely something that I was quite worried about. You know, if that if you think that you’re going to come here and save people and free Palestine, like that is very much not the case. You’re, you’re here to learn from the people and be led by them and show solidarity with them. And yeah. So it is important to think about your intentions for coming for sure. But my experience of being here, as you said, like everyone is, like, so welcoming. And I think just grateful that we’re here because you know, there is just such a lack of coverage of what is really happening here. So it’s so important for us to be here and to see the reality on the ground and to go home and share that with people.

Maria 13:52

Yeah, completely agree. And ISM is 100% Palestinian led. We’re non-violent, of course. But we would never ever take the initiative of doing anything if the Palestinians around us are not – like we’ve not consulted them before. So that’s an important point. And yeah, I think as Herbie was saying, like, we’re not saviours. But I think the Palestinians understand how isolated they are outside this… the situation on the ground, and like in Western countries, and whatever. And because like, Israel has all these ties with like Western countries and countries outside, I think they need this sort of connection with the outside world. So it’s, yeah, it’s not a matter of us coming here and being saviours, but more like documenting in, and then try to like, lobby and do diplomacy when we’re back home.

Nicole 14:40

Amazing. What was the trigger for coming here? Like what inspired you to join? Obviously, there’s lots of places you could have gone or things you could have done, like, what was it that kind of called you here?

Maria 14:49

So I’ve been campaigning for Palestine in the UK, quite a lot. It’s something that I’ve been knowing about, lately shap[ing] my life, but like, I don’t know, I just feel that this is so much dependent on like behaviors of Western countries, and we can actively do something to stop what’s happening here. So that made me like more and more involved back home. And then I just thought that it would have been good to actually come and see the situation on the ground. And this, for me, is the first time that I find myself in a situation like this or like in a conflict area, and like having to deal with soldiers or this violence. So it’s been an interesting growth. But yeah, I think knowing things from outside… it just fed naturally then to come and see things on the ground. But yeah, um, first time that I’m in like this sort of situation.

Herbie 15:39

Yeah, that’s, like, coming here has been, like, a long time coming for me. So I was like, very much raised as a Zionist. My, like, most of my family are Israeli. And I’ve had to do a lot of like unlearning. And yeah, finding out the truth about the situation here. And yeah, I think, I mean, obviously, I want to be here to show solidarity with Palestinians, but also like to, like, see, for myself, to be able to, like, communicate with my family and like, try and explain to them what’s really happening here because like, although some of them are sympathetic to the cause, they’re very inactive. And it’s, it’s very easy for them to just like, live their lives, sort of ignoring what is happening just like a few miles away from them. And yeah, I want to try and show them what’s really going on and hopefully inspire them to – and empower them to – actually stand in solidarity with Palestinians. And yeah, I think also as a Jewish person, it’s particularly important to, for me to – I guess I have, there’s definitely guilt there. And I feel like I almost need to like show that not all Jewish people are Zionists.

Nicole 16:55

Yeah like a final question, I guess is, what would you say to someone who’s maybe like, on the fence about coming, like thinking about it, maybe they’re saving up for it, but they’re just not quite sure whether to come on up. And you know, there’s only a handful of us here. And I know from friends, they’ve talked about this history of ISM, where there was like hundreds of people here all over the West Bank doing different things. And it’s quite – like you said at the beginning with the pandemic, it’s really affected the amount of people coming. So, obviously, you know, we’re hoping with this podcast that people will listen, and that will inspire them to join ISM here, but yeah, what would you say to anyone that was considering it, but not quite sure yet?

Maria 17:32

Yeah. I mean, I guess it’s individual cases. But I would generally encourage people to come. It’s, even though it’s a tough experience, but you grow a lot as a person. And there’s so much to learn from people here on the ground. And I think just seeing things with your own eyes is so much different than like reading or listening to stories. And yeah, like Palestinians are absolutely amazing. And there’s lots of support on the ground. And yeah, we’re saying like, there are challenges there, like people should think about so again, depends on individual situation. But yeah, I think just think that you will never be forced to do things or to be in situation where you don’t want to be in. So if you want to start with like a lighter approach and just understanding the situation. There will be room to do that and maybe just go around and talk to families like without necessarily being involved in maybe [a] conflict situation, although that might happen. I mean, it is at risk that you need to consider. But I think in general, it’s been such a like eye opening experience. That yeah, I cannot think of one reason not to come here.

Herbie 18:43

Yeah, coming here for me was like such a daunting challenge. But one that I like… I’m 100% so glad that I made. I think that if you’re like, unsure and you probably have like a lot of questions and uncertainties, like you can get in touch with ISM by email and attend a training and they’ll answer all of the questions that you have. Yeah, as Maria said, like, it’s just I mean, for me, it’s like definitely been like a life changing experience in a good way. And yeah, you’re stronger than you think you are. And you can, like, you know, I think the Palestinian people are incredibly resilient and face these things every day. And I think we are in a very privileged position to be able to like, come here and witness this and then go back home. And I think you won’t regret coming.

Announcing the International Solidarity Movement podcast

Welcome to the International Solidarity Movement (ISM) podcast. ISM is a Palestinian-led group which – for more than 20 years – has provided an important platform for international volunteers to join and support the popular resistance against Israel’s colonial occupation of Palestine.

This podcast has been made by ISM volunteers, aiming to amplify voices from the Palestinian struggle – and raise awareness of ISM’s work. Find out more about ISM at www.palsolidarity.org

The International Solidarity Movement podcast episode one: An introduction to ISM

In this first episode of the International Solidarity Movement podcast, we interview Abdel Karim – who has been with the movement since the early 2000s.

The ISM is a grassroots Palestinian-led organisation, with principles of non-violence , non-hierarchy, and anti oppression. It makes all of its decisions by consensus. Over the last 20 years it has been an important way for people internationally to get involved in the Palestinian popular struggle.

Links:

International Solidarity Movement website

Join ISM’s work in Palestine

If you would like an explanation of the terms used in this podcast, you can find a useful glossary on pages 140-154 of Shoal Collective’s Ebook

Supported by Shoal Collective

Transcript

(you can also see this by clicking transcript in the player above)

Length: 27:10

Introduction 00:01

Hey, welcome to international solidarity movement podcast [followed by Arabic translation]

Tom 00:13

Hello and welcome to the first episode of the International Solidarity Movement podcast This podcast has been made by three volunteers who visited the West Bank in December 2022, to join the work of the Palestinian-led International Solidarity Movement. My name’s Tom – and I first joined ISM over 20 years ago now – In 2002. Since then I have been on many visits to Palestine over the years.

I made this podcast with my comrades Hazel and Nicole. We wanted to make the podcast to amplify some of the struggles that are happening right now in Palestine, and particularly to raise awareness of the work of ISM. We’re hoping that some of you who’ll listen might consider joining ISM in Palestine.

The three of us are involved in anti-repression organising in the UK – supporting prisoners, and people experiencing state repression. We wanted to learn about how people in Palestine support each other in the face of the Israeli occupation’s prison system, and many of our interviews touch on this subject.

We’ve recorded a series of 14 interviews. This first interview is with Abdel Karim, who’s an amazing Palestinian friend and comrade who has been with the ISM since almost the beginning. We asked him some questions about himself and what drew him to working with the International Solidarity Movement. The ISM is a grassroots Palestinian led organisation, with principles of non-violence , non-hierarchy, and anti oppression. It makes all of its decisions by consensus.

First a note about the way the use of the term non-violence in this interview. ISM is part of the Palestinian popular ‘non-violent’ unarmed. resistance against the occupation (a resistance which – I should add – is met by extreme militarised armed violence by the Israeli forcesand settlers). In contrast to many strands of European pacifism’, ISM does not see non-violence as the only legitimate tactic against Israeli colonisation. Instead the ISM points out that the Palestinians have the right to use force to resist. However, the goal of ISM is to use non-violent tactics as a way of furthering the Palestinian struggle. And now I’ll pass over to Nicole and Abdel Karim:

Nicole 02:25

Hello, thank you for joining us today. Please can you share a little bit about yourself and how you got involved with ISM? Nicole: What was it that led you to ISM? What do you think is the role of internationalists who come?

Abdel Karim 02:33

Hello. Welcome and I’m happy meeting you and working with you. I am Abdel Karim, [I am] Palestinian. Now I’m a freelance journalist, but I used to be an activist and also a human rights defender [for] last, like 30 years, after [my] release from the prison.

I have been a student in Turkey, as a mechanical engineer. During a vacation coming back to visit my family I was arrested, accused to do [illegal] activity – at that time in ’80s to be a member even in the student union – the Palestinian student union – or any political party, it is illegal according to the Israeli occupation security system, which is not a real system, it is an occupation system. So I spent like from 1984 until 1990 in prison – six years – sentenced first for five years for being an activist and for membership in a political party within the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organisation]. And after six months of being released I was arrested again and put in administrative detention. Because it was during the First Intifada, and they used to arrest Palestinians, even [though] I work[ed] as a journalist at that time, at the beginning. I [had got] engaged and [was] starting my new life. But anyway, they arrested me for six months, then they extend [an]other six months, accusing me that I do something even during while I was in prison, which is fake. Then I [was] released in 1990. Married, and now I have five children. I work[ed] as a journalist in Al Ayyam newspaper, as a reporter for that newspaper. And after 10 years, I quit and work as a Palestinian freelance journalist. As you may know, that ISM, the International Solidarity Movement, started in 2001 when some Palestinian activists and other international volunteers [were] here – found that during the Second Intifada when it started in 2000 – that there is a need to do something to protect the Palestinians, from the violence of the occupation forces at that time, when they invade all the Palestinian cities, making curfews, road blocks and killing a lot of Palestinians. So those internationals and Palestinian activists joined together to act and to participate in Palestinian non-violent direct actions against the occupation. So it started like this. They make their principles. As a journalist in Tulkarem, and in the hot areas that was in the North – Nablus, Tulkarem, Jenin and others – and there is a lot of international volunteers. So we [made a local] group of this movement, I joined this movement, because I like – I really convinced and like – the principles and the rules that they are working with. [I was] especially convinced with nonviolent direct action resistance, including boycott as the most active way to show our issue and to lead us for freedom. What made me like ISM in general, is because at that time, I [was] a member of different societies in Tulkarem, including the Red Crescent. And, and we hosted those international volunteers in our society, because they’re doing a great work for us. And as journalists… it leads me also to free movement because the Israeli’s occupation will put more obstacles against Palestinian journalists, even though we hold an International Press Card, we are mostly targeted. International volunteers [did] much moving [of] road blocks, breaking the curfews, joining the ambulances to rescue the injured people. This great work involved me.

And also the rules, ISM have – used to have – three main principles. First, the Palestinian-led organisation. Even though it includes both Palestinians and internationals, but [it is] Palestinian-led. Which means that we, as ISMers – as a movement, as volunteers, believing in non-violence, will follow what the Palestinian grassroots organisation, what the grassroots needs, and what they’ve learned. Palestinian-led means also that the international activists are not initiating any kind of activity, They are just participating, being in solidarity, stand[ing] hand-by-hand with the Palestinians in direct non-violent actions. So, the other principle is non violence, we believe in non violence as a power, of nation, of people against the oppression. So, non violence, it is not a tactic, it is a strategy of ISM and the strategy of a lot of liberation movements, for example like India, South Africa and other places. The other thing that attracted me was that in the past, I was a member in a political party, which depends on hierarchical – I don’t know this exactly in English – a hierarchical system. And ISM is uhhierarchical. So, there [are] no leaders, all the volunteers, all the members in this organisation are having the power of making decisions together. No leaders, and no power – no one tell us what to do. We are doing what comes from the grassroots, what are the needs from the community. So we are here for like joining the Palestinian nonviolent struggle being like a protective presence, and documenting the violations from the Israeli occupation forces and settlers – colonial settlers, illegal settlers – [who are] here acting against Palestinian people, land, and their homes. [We are] against the system of ethnic cleansing… house demolishing and confiscating land and uprooting of trees, and everything [that]’s happening from the occupation forces. And we are believe in this also, ISM believes that the Palestinians have the right to resist the occupation, according to the international law – in every ways. But ISM like use the nonviolent strategy in that struggle. So people are appreciated those internationals, which gives hope. Yeah, the issue is, in general, also, there is two other issues which attracted and encouraged people to join ISM. First of all, ISM volunteers are self-funded. So we are not under an umbrella of any political party, or any conditional funds come from any side. So we have our independent policy. And also most of all, they are not related or connected to any political party. So we are connected to the needs of the Palestinian movement, with the Palestinians. So this gives the respect for ISM volunteers [in] the Palestinian community in general.

Nicole 11:59

What sort of things do people do like day to day? And obviously, you know, it’s been going a really long time – what are some of the kinds of successes you’ve seen of like the power of ISM here?

Abdel Karim 12:11

Yeah, there’s a lot of successes, I said that seeing international volunteers presence here in solidarity with Palestinians gives the hope of Palestinians that we are not alone, we will not lose the hope. Also ISM – in the past – when they started building the apartheid wall against West Bank, we managed to stop it and highlight how it affects the Palestinian life. And in the past also ISM activists when they are in solidarity with Palestinians who[se] homes will be demolished, stay… at home resisting the demolition order, either to [stop it], or delay it until the people can reach the court and stop it. We have a lot of succe[ss] in this issue. Nowadays, maybe the increasing of the violence from the Israelis, and they didn’t care about the international volunteers Or even about the human rights, even in this case, the highlight of the Palestinian case with volunteers, human rights activists joining ISM in their countries because most of the work for the international volunteers when they are seeing in their eyes, what’s happening here and participating and feel what’s happening here, when they return back they make a lot of activities for Palestinians within their countries. They managed to change a little bit public opinion in those countries, to put pressure on their governments who usually – specially European countries, United States – usually, like supporting and still supporting Israel… so Palestinians reach many succe[ss] in the field of highlight[ing] whats the life under the occupation, and make a public opinion [that] the Palestinian goals should be solved. The Palestinians should have their rights for freedom, return and justice.

Nicole 14:34

It’s been like a real pleasure to meet you here, and have training from you, and have little moments of conversation with you about your life. And I think for people listening from other countries it would be amazing if you can share a little bit more about your background – if you feel comfortable – like what politicised you?

Abdel Karim 14:54

This is not only me. It is it’s happening for every Palestinian, like students or even children, when they live under the occupation for this long time. I [was] born – I am 60 years old, 65 actually, today is my birthday [laughter] – Yeah 65 years old. I [was] born before the occupation of ’67. And my family used to be from Yaffa [Jaffa], from ’48 [The name given to the territories taken by Zionist forces in 1948]. But we are not registered as refugees, we are living in Tulkarem, and we have homes in Yaffa. So we lost most of our land. So Palestinian people in general are very connected to politics because of their cause. So as a child – nine years old born under the occupation and in the ‘60’s, ‘70’s [there was] a lot of resistance because we thought that this occupation should be ended – so I involved in politics, as a child in the school – because at that time [in the] ’70s there is a lot of military forces in our lives, in between our homes every day. We are facing them, [they] invaded our schools, killing… and we are involved in demonstrations – and most of the time, from ’67 until ’93, when the PA [Palestinian Authority] established there is no armed resistance inside the West Bank and Gaza. It is only like non-violent resistance, maximum throwing stones to express our anger, our rights. So in this environment I was, and then I become like, turn to the let’s say, [the] communist or leftist strategy.

Then I finish my school and there is no university here – for the capacity of most of the Palestinian students – so I study outside, I went to Turkey – to Jordan first – and to Turkey.[inaudible] In Turkey I [was] involved in politics through the Palestinian Students Union, and with the political parties. So this gives me the power when I come here and – because of my activity outside – which is just telling people what’s going on here, and joining some protests here in the vacations. So I was arrested here while I’m coming to visit, at the border between Jordan and the West Bank, which was under the control of the Israelis, and charged for five years for memberships [of political organisations]. When I was released in 1989, it was the First Intifada, which is the big uprising for Palestinian people. It is normal to participate in it. Of course, because [it was] forbidden to travel to continue my study forever, at that time. So no hope for going back to Turkey, or even [to study] in the West Bank. I involved in to change my… work. Because being in prison for like five years, we are very sociable people, and involved in politics. And when I married, she [my wife] asked me what I [would say] to [our] family [about what my occupation would be]. I told her, tell [them] he is a journalist. And then I go to the media, take some workshops, then study [media] in Bir Zeit [university], and I was involved in media work. This is what happened. But we continue [through] the uprising – the First Intifada – the Second Intifada, and the ’90s. All the time [I did] media work as a journalist, and as an activist seeing… a lot of violations – I continue my activity besides my work, and besides [I was] a family keeper, or whatever. So it is normal – and this is the story of every Palestinian of that generation. And it is the story of every Palestinian in this generation also, living under this environment of road blocks, killing, confiscating, demolishing homes – it involved every Palestinian. It involved even international human rights volunteers here. What about Palestinians? And yeah, we feel that as a Palestinian. I feel, and all the Palestinians feel that we will not develop our country, we will not get good economic situation without being free, or hav[ing an] independent state- of this longest occupation, which [is] like doing everything in order to take us out, [already] half of our nation, or more than half – as Palestinians are 14 million now. Maybe six, millions living in Gaza, and the West Bank, East Jerusalem and in what we call Israel, or ’48.

Nicole 20:56

So you know, we’re here in December 2022. And there’s been some clear elections of very right wing politicians in ’48, in Israel. How do you think this is going to affect things in Palestine? And what’s your perspective the necessary direction for liberation of Palestine in the future?

Abdel Karim 21:18

It is not the new that the right wing – or fascist – parties are winning the elections. Because always the Israeli governments are from right wing in general, and continue the project of Zionist in general. The bad issue is from the Palestinian side. Today, for example, it is 2023 – more than 30 years old since signing [the] Oslo Agreement, which is called the ‘peace process’. And most of what happens in this 30 years [is that] that more land is confiscated, more expanding of settlements, more violence created, either from Israeli occupation forces or the colonialist settlers – [now there are] maybe around 800,000 Israeli settlers living in the West Bank – they are taking the land. And on the other side, the weakness in Palestinian political parties, PLO [Palestine Liberation Organisation] the division between Gaza and the West Bank. This [has] weakened the Palestinian political leadership, including [the] establish[ment of the] PA [Palestinian Authority] – it goes on the condition of funds, and also affected by very big corruption issues, that make the Palestinian cause very weak.

But on the other hand, the new generation – or the population – which suffered from the occupation, I think they are about to explode against all the[se] system[s]: Israel’s occupation first, and also the PA. Without a big mass of resistance, and the only type of resistance, strategy of resistance [that] can gain is participating as much as population. I have hope, because of the public opinion in the West, like, especially to international activists, international volunteers, international human rights organisations who see in their eyes – that they can a little bit make some changes [to] the public opinion because we need [it]. The Arab Palestinian media, and Arab media is very weak compared to the Zionist media… so that those activists or volunteers coming here and move it or send our message to the European media, making activity in solidarity with Palestinians are chang[ing] the power of the Israeli media, and at least in the communities in Europe – not for the government, because the government are dedicated to supporting Israel as a base for controlling the area in the Arab countries. So I think nowadays, it is up to the Palestinian 14 million nation to do something. Even the ones who are outside – specially in Syria, Lebanon and the refugee camps are facing very bad situation, which gives them no power, just for fighting for living, not supporting. So it depends on how much the people are steadfasting here, how much [we] refuse immigration. Because what happened in ’48, shouldn’t happen again. And it will not happen again.

Nicole 25:45

So finally, one of the aims of this podcast is to encourage people to come. What would you say to people that are maybe thinking about it but are not sure?

Abdel Karim 25:55

I told you that the Palestinian cause now depending on the pressure putting on Israel by the United Nations in general, and the European countries who support Israel. And [they] will not change their policies if they haven’t pressure from their community. So I think that also Palestinians didn’t want to feel left alone. So when they see more internationals coming in solidarity with them, it gives them hope, because they know that [they] are very supportive to them. So I encourage as much volunteers, and people – normal people – to come here and see [the situation] on the ground, in order to face the Zionist media. This is first, and also to support the Palestinians and give this power for the Palestinian to continue their struggle for their rights, justice, freedom and return.

The International Solidarity Movement podcast episode two: Surviving settler violence in Masafer Yatta

In episode two of our podcast we speak to Gassim Hamad Tahan from the village of Mufagara, in Masafer Yatta, in the South Hebron Hills.

Gassim told us how the experience he had growing up is different to those of his children and grandchildren, and about his dedication to steadfastly staying on the land, despite violent attacks by settlers, and a colonial army intent on evicting Palestinians from the area.

Links

Scenes from a Jewish pogrom -972 Magazine report on the settler attack on Mufagara

International Solidarity Movement call to action – Masafer Yatta

Save Masafer Yatta website

Masafer Yatta – communities Israel is trying to drive out – by Btselem

If you would like an explanation of the terms used in this podcast, you can find a useful glossary on pages 140-154 of Shoal Collective’s Ebook

Supported by Shoal Collective

Transcript

(you can also see this by clicking transcript in the player above)

Length: 26:29

Introduction 00:01

Hey, welcome to International Solidarity Movement podcast [followed by Arabic translation]

Hazel 00:18

Hello and welcome to the second episode of the International Solidarity Movement podcast. My name’s Hazel and I’m happy to be joining you today. So this interview is with Gassim Hamad Tahan, who is fellahin – which is basically translatable to being a land worker, a peasant, or a traditional farmer – in the village of Mufagara, in Masafer Yatta, in the South Hebron Hills. We spent some time in Mufaqara as part of ISM’s work to be a presence in case of demolitions or attack by the occupying forces. We got to join in with some of the traditional work Gassim and his family do day to day, which involves looking after a herd of goats, donkeys, chickens, and other animals, building, as well as being shown how to bake sweets by the younger people in the family. We recorded this episode sat in Gassim’s family home. Some of the children can be heard in the background at different points whispering and bringing tea, and we also left Gassim’s full answers to our questions in Arabic in the podcast, so that English and Arabic speakers can listen. The valleys and hills of Massafer Yatta were ruled a closed military zone called ‘Firing Zone 918’ in the 1980s. This is an Israeli state ruling that claimed the area was supposedly ‘uninhabited’, and therefore can be used for the occupying force’s military practice, despite the fact Palestinians have been living and working in the region for many, many generations with traditional ways of life, like living in caves, shepherding, and subsistence farming, sometimes semi-nomadically. The occupying state has violently tried to force families out of the area for decades. This has been done through legal rulings in the courts, supporting settler violence and settlement expansion, and by carrying out demolitions of Palestinian homes and property. Now the residents of the firing zone are under a renewed, imminent threat of eviction. Gassim told us how the experience he had growing up is different to those of his children and grandchildren, and about his dedication to steadfastly staying on the land. Today we’re in the village Mufagara which is in Masafer Yatta in the Firing Zone 918 and we’re interviewing Gassim Hamad Tahan about his experiences living under the occupation and the resistance. So yeah, thank you very much for joining us. I’m just gonna pass over and ask you to just introduce yourself and your family and maybe the history of the village? And just say a bit day to day like what it’s like living here?

Gassim 02:44

[translation of question then answer from Gassim in Arabic]

Translation 02:51

His name is Gassim Hamad Tahan from Mufagara village. What his daily life [is] here, it’s really about fearing and like scary day, like in any moment he is feeling that he could be killed or arrested. So fears and his worries are everyday in his heart and about his small children his sons and about his house. So like from all of the sides that his life is like surrounded of fear and worries. Like before the eighties, before even the occupation came to the Massafer Yatta area, it was like a good life, a safe life, like really having a good life with like the family, there was no threats on them so like he says that all his life is surrounded by worries and fear from [being] expelled evicted, killed or arrested even.

Gassim 04:42

And is it possible for you to say a bit more about what it’s like day to day? He’s felaheen, so he’s like a farmer who’s living with the land. Is it possible to talk a bit about that connection with the land and maybe how it has been in the past and also how it is now. But what does the land like mean for him? [translation of question then answer from Gassim in Arabic]

Translation 07:12

His life as a farmer born before the occupation arrived and the settlers and everything else that happened. They were having a very good life, like, going with their sheep everywhere no one can prevent them to reach their land. They plough the land, farm it and harvest it, so they were like really having a simple life, living in caves and some tents and some like – what was in the past, there was nothing like services that like came to them. So after the occupation arrived, the confiscating of the land, stopping the people to reach their land, and even the settler harassment on the farmers and also the shepherds – they were killing the sheep, they were like shepherding with the sheep when settlers came and killed some of the sheep, and you know threatening them. So they started like, it was really something that scared them and prevent them to go, because they will risk their life for that.

So like he was asking like for all of the countries to stand with them, because they are simple farmers and they want to have their simple life. They want to live as the settler living in the illegal outpost that was established in the Palestinian land, that have all of the human services – they want to live like them. Not like if you want to go – if you want to build a simple tent to live in, like to go out from the cave, and to live in a simple house, or a tent, they will immediately demolish it and confiscated it. So he ask just for like a simple life, safe with no threats. I want to ask him also about what is his connection with the land.

Gassim 09:01

[translation of question then answer from Gassim in Arabic]

Translation 09:25

So his land, like he used to think that cannot like lost it. So he just take it from his grandfather and his grandfather took it from his parents also. This like the land has come to him now, from his father, so now he’s like, he has the connection between him and the land, that he cannot like leave it. And he can pay any price in order to not to like leave his land. And even if he would go back to live in the caves, and if there is any threats on him, he will just stay on his land because there is no other way to go.

Hazel 10:03

So we also mentioned that this is a firing zone, and I was wondering if you could explain a bit about what that means. Because the people who are listening will be coming internationally they won’t necessarily know what are the conditions, what legally does it mean, and what does it really mean for the people living here? So if you can explain a bit about that it would be amazing

Translation 10:42

Since the ‘67, when the Israeli occupation first occupied the West Bank, and until it reached Masafer Yatta in the 80s, they announced Masafer Yatta as a closed military zone. And from this, like they used this excuse to, to steal more land and expand more settlements. And settlers are in, in order to – as one of the tools that the occupation uses to harass the Palestinians and make them feel, like, scared and fear to lose their lands.

So since the you know, these like, policy that, you know, they’ve announced Masafer Yatta as a closed military zone, and there are people who’s living in this area, and they [the Israeli occupation] didn’t have the right even to announce [the military zone as uninhabited] because there are the people who are living here. And this is a threat on the people to be killed. Because this is a very dangerous thing on the people. So this like, what they announced as a closed military zone, is an excuse in order to evacuate the Palestinians from their lands, from their villages – from their own villages. He’s like, even imagine that he’s saying that, that the village is now in 2022. And until now, there is the fighting and the eviction, you know. This is like we want to imagine the future could be a good future, not a bad future. So he just wants to have days that are like those in the past, there is no occupation, no harassment, no threats, nothing.

So he’s like, just hoping for all of these violations to stop, and for the Israeli occupation forces to go out, and take the settlers and the settlements – to take them out. And this what he means, you know, I just – he mentioned something and I just mentioned from me just to give them the real idea.

Hazel 15:09

So is it possible to say a bit more about like, if you remember before the Firing Zone, what it was like growing up here, and could you expand a bit more on what the conditions were like how it felt in those times?

Gassim 15:21

[translation of question then answer from Gassim in Arabic

Translation 16:03

So he was born in Mufagara village and his beautiful moment in his life was when he was a child because there was no fear. Nothing to care about. Life is like funny. You go to study in Yatta walking like one hour and back. And this shows how in the past everything was – you can go wherever you want. wherever you can go, and your parents will not be worried about you, because there is nothing or any threats on you. So, he said like, these are the best days that I have lived in. Now, today like, after he has grown up and all of these threats came and all of the occupation started to harass the Palestinians.

Even you know, now that his children now they are studying in At-Tuwani village, and even though the distance between here and At-Tuwani is just one kilometer. And they send their children in the morning and you know, they feel the fears and worries about them. You know, they just count to ten to take them to the school and to come back, because there is no safety, there is settlers – they can attack them or they have threats. And with your children you cannot like put them anywhere. So like he said like there’s a very big distance between the past and today.

Hazel 18:18

Is it possible to just say like how many children live in the village and you know what it’s like for them growing up here? We’ve met a lot of the kids and they’re really amazing, and very funny, and very friendly, they’ve really welcomed us as guests very very well, and I really thank them for that. I was wondering if you could talk a bit about and what it might be like for them.

Gassim 18:54

[translation of question then answer from Gassim in Arabic

Translation 19:27

So he said like these children [are] born under the risk and under the occupation. And even they said when we want to walk them to school sometimes, they send the police sometimes, because maybe the settler will meet them in the road and they will attack them. So they used to go with them to take them to school and back. So their like routine – these children like while they’re playing up there, when they see an army or settler, he just run[s] to his father and he says ‘there’s army or settlers, maybe they will do [something to] us, they will attack us’. He says ‘no, just don’t worry’.

So the last thing that I want to add to what is happening. And really, as you can say a massacre here, that very big huge number of settlers from the illegal outposts of Havat Ma’on and Avigail, they gathered and they attacked this village, brutally. And the army were with them, even they were like saving them, you know, and protecting them. They were having guns, they were throwing stones on the houses and there was one child that was injured on his head. He was sleeping and there was one big stone it was it was like [thrown on] his head. So he was hospitalised.

And even then, there was no justice that day. The cars were burned , and the house were destroyed. And after that every child here was having a very, very big problems with his psychological things. So, he was even after that, when he wanted to go, when he saw settler or army, he would just ask his father ‘will they do the same thing with what they have done the last year?’, or something like that.

So these like, also the families, they are just taking care of the children to like – to get this fear out of them and you know, to resist as they resist, during their lives. And you know, he just wants his children and the children in the community to have their rights as other children in the world. That they’re having the safety. All of the rights of education to go to school safe, not to face the checkpoints, to not have the injustice, the attacks. So he just hopes to his children to have all their rights as other children in the world.

Hazel 22:27

I’m really sorry to hear about the attack. It’s absolutely horrible, and especially a child being injured is completely unforgivable and really disgusting. I was wondering if there was anything else that you wanted to share and also, if you wanted to say anything about – about or for – international people coming here about why they should come? And if there’s any other message to give to the people who might be listening?

Gassim 23:11

[translation of question then answer from Gassim in Arabic] [translation of question then answer from Gassim in Arabic]

Translation 23:57

So he’s very grateful for the presence here and he is very thankful for all the efforts that they do that they came to be in solidarity with the people. And for example like including he is going to shepherding at least he feels some people that are standing with them, that there’s still some people who really care about that case, the Palestinian case, about all the violations that happens against them. And even now like just to show how the international presence is important is, for example, it happened with them when one time is one settler he was going to attack them, but there was international people with them. And they said for them ‘come tomorrow without these people’ you know as he just want to attack them.

Gassim 24:37

So we know that Khallet Al-Daba’ is facing eviction at the moment imminently and we’re just wondering. if they’re evicted does that mean that this village also will be next? Is it that this will then be evicted as well? [translation of question then answer from Gassim in Arabic] [translation of question then answer from Gassim in Arabic]

Translation 25:40

So he say, he hope not, to the [eviction of] Khallet al-Daba’ village, but he said if they will evict the people and demolish everything there they will – they will not just on[ly] this village, they will go around all the Palestinian villages in Masafer Yatta. So this will be a threat on all the people around, in the community, and he hope not to happen this thing, and to have a big solidarity from everywhere from outside Palestine or inside, to stop all of this eviction and ethnic cleansing that the Israeli occupation is doing.

Hazel 26:15

Shukran, shukran. Hurriya Filistin!